African Europeans: An Untold History

African Europeans: An Untold History

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  • Create Date:2021-11-28 09:53:54
  • Update Date:2025-09-06
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  • Author:Olivette Otélé
  • ISBN:1787381919
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Summary

Africans or African Europeans are widely believed to be only a recent presence in Europe, a feature of our ‘modern’ society。 But as early as the third century, St Maurice—an Egyptian— became the leader of a legendary Roman legion。 Ever since, there have been richly varied encounters between those defined as ‘Africans’ and those called ‘Europeans’, right up to the stories of present-day migrants to European cities。 Though at times a privileged group that facilitated exchanges between continents, African Europeans have also had to navigate the hardships of slavery, colonialism and their legacies。

Olivette Otele uncovers the long history of Europeans of African descent, tracing an old and diverse African heritage in Europe through the lives of individuals both ordinary and extraordinary。 This hidden history explores a number of questions very much alive today。 How much have Afro-European identities been shaped by life in Europe, or in Africa? How are African Europeans’ stories marked by the economics, politics and culture of the societies they live in? And how have race and gender affected those born in Europe, but always seen as Africans?

African Europeans is a landmark celebration of this integral, vibrantly complex slice of European history。

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Reviews

Kristen。H

Intrigued and looking forward to reading this。 As someone who identifies as African with a global genetic cocktail, this should be an interesting read!

Lynn

A History of Africans in Europe An account of Africans who lived in Europe and the changes people went through as colonialism and enslavement became more common。 Author finds several notable personalities throughout European history who lived exceptional lives。

Suzanne

Interesting, but very academic in style and assuming a background that not every person will have。

Olivia Marmouget

If you are someone like me who does not particularly like historical books, don’t be fooled by this one! It is way more than that! I loved every part of it, as every chapter explains in detail The Who why where what when of The African Europeans of today。

Juliana

Realistically, I'd say I'd give this read 4。5 stars。 A rounded 5 stars of course, because I can't say I feel eager to the max about my read, whether in reflection or recommending it further。 But I won't say I don't feel eager to the max。 It might depend on my audience。 So yeah, essentially 5 stars。 Realistically, I'd say I'd give this read 4。5 stars。 A rounded 5 stars of course, because I can't say I feel eager to the max about my read, whether in reflection or recommending it further。 But I won't say I don't feel eager to the max。 It might depend on my audience。 So yeah, essentially 5 stars。 。。。more

Gareth Russell

Beautifully written, it balances both the panoramic of the wider story with the intimate details of individuals' lives。 A deeply researched and fascinating book。 Beautifully written, it balances both the panoramic of the wider story with the intimate details of individuals' lives。 A deeply researched and fascinating book。 。。。more

Lisa

This is easily read by a popular audience。 It isn’t a straightforward history, but more a set of historically informed meditations and educational essays on the relationships over time between Africans and Europeans and what we mean by those terms and how hard multiple identities are。 It pushes us to think about how and where racialised identities are formed and to re-evaluate assumptions about race。 The historical stories she told were mostly not familiar with me and I learned a lot about the f This is easily read by a popular audience。 It isn’t a straightforward history, but more a set of historically informed meditations and educational essays on the relationships over time between Africans and Europeans and what we mean by those terms and how hard multiple identities are。 It pushes us to think about how and where racialised identities are formed and to re-evaluate assumptions about race。 The historical stories she told were mostly not familiar with me and I learned a lot about the fate of the children of mixed race marriages。 。。。more

Nicola Royan

A tour de force of readability, scholarship and polemic。

Shannan Harper

This was a very detailed book about Europeans that have African descent。 The book read like a history textbook to me, so if you like those type of books, then this would be the book for you。 Although I do have to say the book was insightful and very informative

Melissa

I listened to this。 It was by turns fascinating, dry, and impossible for me to follow。 It is important work and I look forward to finding this on paper so that I can better absorb it。 As an audiobook, African Europeans seemed disjointed - a collection of mini histories of the African diaspora in Europe and into the colonial world。 The chapters on Black lives during the Renaissance and persons of Dual Heritage seemed to be more tightly woven。 I read a review that commented on the author's Europea I listened to this。 It was by turns fascinating, dry, and impossible for me to follow。 It is important work and I look forward to finding this on paper so that I can better absorb it。 As an audiobook, African Europeans seemed disjointed - a collection of mini histories of the African diaspora in Europe and into the colonial world。 The chapters on Black lives during the Renaissance and persons of Dual Heritage seemed to be more tightly woven。 I read a review that commented on the author's European pronunciation as distracting。 I can't disagree, but again, I look forward to reading this on paper so that I can better follow the thread Otele weaves between the stories。 I feel that this is a book better absorbed in print, but that fault lies with this reader rather than the author。 。。。more

Mary

One of those fascinating books that contains a multitude of stories。 She gives an overview of African presences in Europe, but many of the subjects deserve books of their own。 Here’s to further research。

Josh Hedgepeth

Thanks to NetGalley for an e-arc。 3-3。5/5 starsThis was a fascinating look at the history of Africans relationship to, and existence in, Europe。 I ended up reading along with the audiobook narrated by the author。The narration was alright。 I always admire academics who choose to narrate their own works, but it can be a learning process。 The quality of the audiobook isn't the best。 It's mostly minor stuff, small shifts in volume or tone or how the author is narrating something, likely due to break Thanks to NetGalley for an e-arc。 3-3。5/5 starsThis was a fascinating look at the history of Africans relationship to, and existence in, Europe。 I ended up reading along with the audiobook narrated by the author。The narration was alright。 I always admire academics who choose to narrate their own works, but it can be a learning process。 The quality of the audiobook isn't the best。 It's mostly minor stuff, small shifts in volume or tone or how the author is narrating something, likely due to breaks in between。 It also feels dry which isn't necessarily a bad thing, merely not my personal preference, but that approach did exacerbate my problem following the content of the book。 I'm hesitant to give this three stars because much of my critique is personal preference mixed with my mindset while reading this。 I've been interested in reading this for a while, and when I finally did it was hard for me to follow the overall narrative in part because I was struggling to read in general。 Nevertheless, some of the blame is with the book, or how it's structured。 It feels like we go from topic to topic, each very detailed, but those very details come across like a wave of facts that I struggled to retain。 Personally, I would have liked to have seen a more overarching narrative to help the reader/me connect each step in the overall story。 Where, even if we don't retain every name or event, we get a good feel of each time period。 Overall, my feelings are very subjective, and I certainly don't want to give the impression that this book isn't worth reading because it very much is。 Even as an American, I felt much of the earliest history explored here is important precursor to American history, not to mention the value of understanding it in Europe considering it's weight on the world's stage。 This isn't an easy book, but if it seems interesting to you, I do urge you to give it a shot。 My struggles don't make it a bad book, nor is it necessarily representative of most readers。 Again, 3-3。5/5 stars。 。。。more

Annie

I appreciated the breadth and reach of this, as much of what I'd read about histories of African diaspora, focus on either England or the US。 Apart from a couple of references throughout, and the second half of the final chapter, this book looks at the wider European communities。 Because the history starts with Biblical, quickly to Roman, it can feel a bit bitsy。 The main focus is on more modern and current times。 I appreciated the breadth and reach of this, as much of what I'd read about histories of African diaspora, focus on either England or the US。 Apart from a couple of references throughout, and the second half of the final chapter, this book looks at the wider European communities。 Because the history starts with Biblical, quickly to Roman, it can feel a bit bitsy。 The main focus is on more modern and current times。 。。。more

Elithrion

Nothing particularly wrong with the book, but just didn't feel either strongly engaging or informative。 I think the stories of people were too academic to be narratively interesting, and at the same time a bit too scattered (and stats-free) to feel like I learned a coherent narrative。 Nothing particularly wrong with the book, but just didn't feel either strongly engaging or informative。 I think the stories of people were too academic to be narratively interesting, and at the same time a bit too scattered (and stats-free) to feel like I learned a coherent narrative。 。。。more

Wilco

Have you ever a book that left you so frustrated you decided to reopen your Good Reads account that you haven't used since high school? Well that is what "African Europeans" did to me。I picked this book up primarily because I want to learn more about the topic。 I didn't even bother to read a page before purchasing the book。 That was a mistake as I would shortly learn。This book is a heavy histography of the topic on hand that looks over maybe one or two people of interests during a "specific" tim Have you ever a book that left you so frustrated you decided to reopen your Good Reads account that you haven't used since high school? Well that is what "African Europeans" did to me。I picked this book up primarily because I want to learn more about the topic。 I didn't even bother to read a page before purchasing the book。 That was a mistake as I would shortly learn。This book is a heavy histography of the topic on hand that looks over maybe one or two people of interests during a "specific" time period for the first five chapters。 Otele examines the story of each person extraordinarily closely, so much so she can't see the forest for the trees。 It is not helped that often the connecting logic between case studies is so jumbled and leaves the reader confused。 There is also the implicit idea throughout much of the writing that one is familiar with the literature that already exists or has ready access to such works。 The writing is dense and academic and hard for any lay person who has not previously read any academic works。The work is not helped that within a "specific" time period, the writer will often jump around to time periods that are supposedly further ahead in the book。 This is supposedly to help connect themes, however it only ends with creating more confusion for the reader。The other issue is, that I have already hinted at, is that some of these case studies seem like a poor choice and only offer interesting factoids of the individual case study despite the impressive citations around them。 The case studies seem to have little impact or bearing on what was happening to other African Europeans and gets stuck with being a presentation of the exceptional。 There is an issue that she discuss the interesting but not necessarily relevant topic of the inter marriages between European Colonizers and the native people along the African West Coast。 I say not necessarily relevant, due to it not exactly about Africans in Europe as the book wishes to discuss, which leads to the slippery slope of whether she should include the stories of African Slaves in the Americas and their interactions with Europeans (which is a topic wildly discussed)。 This ends up taking most of one of the five "time" period chapters and at the same time expands over several time periods and seems disconnected from the rest of the "narrative"。 The book seemingly takes and even worse turn in the final two chapters where is leaves history becomes the last two decades。 Here things become less descriptive, the one redeeming quality of the book, and really becomes less interesting。 The last chapter is really dreadful where it at times reads like a list of Guardian headlines from the past decade and has very little examination。 It was so bad I decided to skim the last ten or so pages。 It really is frustrating that these two chapters take up about a quarter of the book。 Otele would have been better of just dropping these sections and focusing on buttressing up the previous five chapters。I would like to make a quick aside and critique some of the other reviews have declared this book comprehensive。。。this book is hardly comprehensive since it hardly discuss Britain (leaving it to small discussions at the end about Grimes and current media representations of British History), as well as other nations which have some connection to Africa。 It also hardly discusses the migration of Africans to Europe after decolonialism or African participation during the World Wars。There are things I learned from this book and I appreciate this book for giving me this new knowledge。 But this does not outweigh how terribly written and unfocused this book is。 I do hope another book comes along that is far better written and more comprehensive。 With the current political environment that is likely, and I would I highly recommend any potential reader to wait for that book and give this a big pass。 。。。more

Mills College Library

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Rosie

3。5 stars。 This book is on a fascinating topic but the narration was kind of dry

Lona

That's the stuff that should be taught in school too, so people wouldn't always talk like Black people in Europe would be something relatively "new"。 It was super interesting to read and I am glad, that I could catch up on mending my knowledge gap about their history here a bit。 There was also of course information about ongoing important topics that still need to be adressed today。 Absolutely worth reading! That's the stuff that should be taught in school too, so people wouldn't always talk like Black people in Europe would be something relatively "new"。 It was super interesting to read and I am glad, that I could catch up on mending my knowledge gap about their history here a bit。 There was also of course information about ongoing important topics that still need to be adressed today。 Absolutely worth reading! 。。。more

Maddie O。

I received an ARC of this book via NetGalley。There was so much interesting information in this book, but I felt like the way it was presented really did it a disservice。 It wasn't necessarily the writing, but the way that it was organized- it seemed like unconnected events were presented one after another and the chapters didn't seem to have much of a rhyme or reason to them。 If you can look past that, you can learn a lot but it's not the most "user-friendly" history text I've read。 I received an ARC of this book via NetGalley。There was so much interesting information in this book, but I felt like the way it was presented really did it a disservice。 It wasn't necessarily the writing, but the way that it was organized- it seemed like unconnected events were presented one after another and the chapters didn't seem to have much of a rhyme or reason to them。 If you can look past that, you can learn a lot but it's not the most "user-friendly" history text I've read。 。。。more

Anna

↠ 2。5 stars

Clare Boucher

I had the audio version of this book and struggled with it。 First, it is very academic and theory-driven which, I find, doesn’t lend itself to narration。 Secondly, the narration itself is hard to listen to: it’s disjointed and with little sense of flow。 There are pauses in some really odd places and I felt surprised when chapters ended。 Perhaps I will pick up the book because there seemed to be lots of interesting stories and reflections in it。

Kell Andrews

A scholarly work but accessible and essential reading for fantasy and historical fiction readers and writers like myself to understand the connections and exchange between European and African cultures that began in the earliest recorded history

Gretel

I received a review copy from the publisher via Netgalley in exchange for an honest review。----------------------------------Sometimes you find books you instantly know you’ll like。 I found this one months ago and I would’ve read it anyways, but it just so coincided with the rising of racist ignorance regarding Black people living in Europe。 People were decrying the existence of Black characters in popular media, from games to movies, arguing that Black people didn’t live in Europe “at that time I received a review copy from the publisher via Netgalley in exchange for an honest review。----------------------------------Sometimes you find books you instantly know you’ll like。 I found this one months ago and I would’ve read it anyways, but it just so coincided with the rising of racist ignorance regarding Black people living in Europe。 People were decrying the existence of Black characters in popular media, from games to movies, arguing that Black people didn’t live in Europe “at that time”, a range that encompasses from antiquity and the middle-ages to at least 1945。 I already knew that this was historically incorrect and that the presence of Black people was, as I assumed correctly and Otélé proves, an act of active amnesia: erasing, negating and thus forgetting the existence of Black people in Europe as a political move。 So, when I saw this ARC, I was not only happy to learn more and get rid of my blind spots, I was looking forward to being equipped with the historical and scholarly ammunition I needed for future conversations。 I knew this book was going to be good and dear readers, this book delivered and exceeded my expectations tenfold!First of all, for an ARC this book was flawless。 Flawless!I found exactly one minute mistake – one sentence in the epilogue didn’t start with a capitalisation – and was otherwise stunned at the quality, not because I didn’t expect it to be excellent, but because I thought of other ARCs I’ve read。 (One particular very awful nonfiction comes to mind…) Each and every single book by Black women I got through Netgalley share the same amount of skill and rigorous research。 I strive to be that good in my own academic writing and I know I have a long way to go but their work gives me a goal and an example I try to achieve。Not only are grammar and spelling flawless, Otélé is a great storyteller。 She writes clearly, concisely and with passion。 The words flow from the pages, which I know takes a lot of hard work。 The scholarly aspect is equally impeccable with great summaries of complex theories and works, great analysis, giving every single source and summarising materials to give you enough information and details but without being confusing or boring。 It is hard to be able to synthesise sources well。 It was an absolute pleasure to read this。What is African Europeans about?The history of African Europeans is vibrant and complex, just as it is brutal。 It is a collection of experiences that vary greatly from one place to another and across time。 All of these histories have shaped the social practices and identities of European communities and continue to do so today。 The trajectories of African Europeans are embedded in local architecture, as well as in national and international visual, literary and other cultural productions。 From religious artefacts to representations of the magi; from an intellectual in fifteenth-century Granada to the young grime artists of twenty-first-century Britain, African European identities have continuously evolved。 While most eighteenth-century African Europeans had to tiptoe around their spaces, reluctant to assert their presence, twenty-first-century French Afrofeminists and other African Europeans are claiming their rights to self-define, reshaping discourses around race, feminism, and their own lives。 From the antiquities to modern times, Otélé looks at various cases of African-European exchange and the lives of famous and regular people of African Europeans。 We have Roman soldiers, who enjoyed high education and became politicians; religious figures and saints; enslaved and freedpeople, including how Africans navigated slavery as participants within the global market; famous Black women, such as Josephine Baker, Sarah Baartman (Hottentot Venus) and Jeanne Duval; famous European figures with African ancestry like Alexandre Dumas and Alexander Pushkin; people from sports; and much more。As Otélé shows, it would be a mistake to view everything from the racialised and racist lens that permeates our time。 Did racism play an important role in many of these interactions? Yes。 But through millennia and centuries, the idea and identity of “African” had shifted numerous times。 She presents a complex and nuanced kaleidoscope of exchange, influence and even appreciation for African culture, history and people throughout Europe。 It wasn’t until much later that “African” became synonymous with “slave/enslaved” and even within this system of enslavement, exploitation and dehumanisation did Africans find myriad ways to engage with Europe/ans。There are clear examples of exploitation within slavery, as many women were sexually abused by their white owners。 The trajectory for the children was complicated, as some would become enslaved themselves, while others could advance – albeit oftentimes limited – within European society and receive education, possibly even positions or marriages within the European elite。 There are also cases where white men would marry indigenous African women for their connections within their culture, as it made trading – in goods, as well as enslaved people – easier。 This way, African women could profit and even participate in the global market。 The power relations should not be obfuscated and Otélé is very clear in saying that these relations were complex and based on exploitation and uneven power dynamics。 She doesn’t sugar-coat the history or pretend that Africans had equal chances and opportunities within a system that was designed to oppress them。 She merely shows that there were hybrid forms of life where Africans would try and find success, (relative) safety and money within a system as best as they could。African Europeans presents a slice of the many lives of African Europeans, discussing what it meant to be “African” depending on the epoch, the shifting identities and changes in perception and ultimately the numerous and indispensable contributions to European history, culture, economics, society, arts, sports and more。 There is no Europe without Africa, and not only because the first humans to walk the planet moved from Africa to Europe – the first humans to live in what is now England were scientifically proven to be dark-skinned – but because the African-European exchange – from goods and ideas to people – has never stopped。 It was and is a continuous flow。 Fact is that we Europeans profited from Africans and Africa a lot and it hasn’t stopped。 And even if that weren’t the case, people deserve respect, equality, equity and opportunity without being “productive” or becoming a “model immigrant”。 Human rights and dignity should never be tied to conditions, like economic contributions/exploitation。I will end this review by recommending you this book in all its five-star glory。 You will not regret reading it。 And the final words go to Otélé herself:The stories of migratory movement from Africa to the Americas and to Europe educate us about the forced contributions of people of African descent。 Even ‘voluntary’ migrations are also forced in many ways, as economic migrants leave their families and culture in search of better lives。 What to make of all these histories colliding, and contributing to anxiety amongst some contemporary groups while they are deeply valued by others? These stories should be taught, widely analysed, and valued。 They bring us back to our human nature, while also serving as reminders that ‘humanity’ itself is a shifting concept。 […]They do so because the histories of marginalised communities have found ways, be it through music, dance, food, arts or sports, to permeate the societies in which they live and have lived。 Lived experiences have also been transmitted by these groups through successive generations。 However, simply remembering is not the ultimate goal。 Triumph against institutionalised brutality, everyday forms of racism and microaggression, poverty, exclusion and marginalisation requires a radical way of using transmitted experience of resistance。 It demands a collective degree of consciousness that runs across social, economic, gender and cultural barriers。 It entails a renewed and adaptable practice of kinship。 It means engaging with black radicalism。 。。。more

Katheryn Thompson

African Europeans: An Untold History was everything I was hoping it would be。Olivette Otélé illustrates and explores the presence of African people in Europe from the Classical period through to the nineteenth century, pushing back against the common misconception that Black people only became a common sight in Britain after (or during) the world wars。 As with all non-fiction that tackles a large topic, African Europeans leaves the reader wanting to know more, but a lot of thought has clearly go African Europeans: An Untold History was everything I was hoping it would be。Olivette Otélé illustrates and explores the presence of African people in Europe from the Classical period through to the nineteenth century, pushing back against the common misconception that Black people only became a common sight in Britain after (or during) the world wars。 As with all non-fiction that tackles a large topic, African Europeans leaves the reader wanting to know more, but a lot of thought has clearly gone into the structure of this book, and it does an excellent job of covering as much ground as possible in as much detail as possible。 Otélé also makes plenty of choice recommendations, not limited to her bibliography。I loved the way Otélé toggles between the past and the present, demonstrating that African Europeans is not only an important book for its understanding of the past, but also for its illumination of the present。 。。。more

Edward Sullivan

An impressive breadth and depth in this fascinating history, but somewhat lacking in an engaging narrative。

Jordan

A couple of years ago, I was playing the Stonemaier game, "Viticulture" in which you own and operate a "rustic, pre-modern" vineyard throughout all seasons。 I remember looking at the faces on the cards and thinking, "Why are there so many white people?" I wrote to Stonemaier Games and asked them to consider including adding more people of color to any future reprints。 I got a snarky response from Jamey Stegmaier about historical accuracy。 I'm so tired of people without backgrounds in history or A couple of years ago, I was playing the Stonemaier game, "Viticulture" in which you own and operate a "rustic, pre-modern" vineyard throughout all seasons。 I remember looking at the faces on the cards and thinking, "Why are there so many white people?" I wrote to Stonemaier Games and asked them to consider including adding more people of color to any future reprints。 I got a snarky response from Jamey Stegmaier about historical accuracy。 I'm so tired of people without backgrounds in history or anthropology wielding their ignorance like a sword of truth。 Europe has never been exclusively comprised of white people。 First, our definition of white people has changed over time, and second--trade exists! 。。。more

Vansa

This is a dense scholarly account, that traces the presence and role of Africans in Europe, right from the Middle Ages onwards。 The author's aim is to showcase the variety of experiences of Africans, beyond the usual stories of slavery and their contributions in wars。 As she mentions in the foreword, a lot of far-right political parties that are anti-immigration mention immigration as a recent phenomenon and justify racist attacks as unfamiliarity with contact with other cultures, when that coul This is a dense scholarly account, that traces the presence and role of Africans in Europe, right from the Middle Ages onwards。 The author's aim is to showcase the variety of experiences of Africans, beyond the usual stories of slavery and their contributions in wars。 As she mentions in the foreword, a lot of far-right political parties that are anti-immigration mention immigration as a recent phenomenon and justify racist attacks as unfamiliarity with contact with other cultures, when that couldn't be farther from the truth。 Otele's book has a wide cast of characters, and she starts with accounts from the Roman Empire, all the way through the Middle Ages, the Renaissance and to the 21st Century, taking in lives both extraordinary and ordinary。 Her aim is to show that Europe really wasn't as homogenously Caucasian as critics of the casting in Bridgerton would have one believe! Otele also explores the influence of bi-racial communities in entrepots, and the effect trade has on these communities and geographies, such as the Signares of Goree。 She also draws a connection between the laws denying people their rights to humanity, based on race, and modern-day attitudes of racial superiority, to show how antiquated the basis for these beliefs are。The only thing that prevents this from being a 5 star read is the structure-the book is structured according to themes, such as dual heritage, trade, slavery, and in each chapter, she explores that across each time period。 This makes for a lot of back and forth across history, and since she quotes from multiple studies ( in some instances just the name of the thesis is mentioned without any more information about what it was about!), it makes for academic reading rather than well-structured non-fiction。 This is an important book with a really fascinating topic but it's written in a rather dry, academic style。 。。。more

Amanda Peterson

This is a compelling read about subjects most are not even taught in school, granted I knew about Black British Actors, and they are even mentioned in the book and I have some knowledge about the Haitian Revolution as well。 What I appreciate about this book is how extensive it is to not only places like Britain and France but mentions communities all over Europe and even mentions communities in Scotland as well。 I deeply recommend this book, especially if you are as much of a history buff as I a This is a compelling read about subjects most are not even taught in school, granted I knew about Black British Actors, and they are even mentioned in the book and I have some knowledge about the Haitian Revolution as well。 What I appreciate about this book is how extensive it is to not only places like Britain and France but mentions communities all over Europe and even mentions communities in Scotland as well。 I deeply recommend this book, especially if you are as much of a history buff as I am。 。。。more

Peg - The History Shelf

You can read my review at BookBrowse Review here:https://www。bookbrowse。com/reviews/in。。。 You can read my review at BookBrowse Review here:https://www。bookbrowse。com/reviews/in。。。 。。。more

Ashley

I received this as an ARC from Netgalley。com。I really wanted to like this。 And some parts I did but it was very detailed。 I have very little knowledge about this topic and I felt very lost through most of it。 I have a bachelor's in history so I am always looking for something new to explore and learn about。 This was something that intrigued me。 I just found myself struggling to get through it。 Maybe at another time I will give it a try but right now it was not enough to hold my attention。 I received this as an ARC from Netgalley。com。I really wanted to like this。 And some parts I did but it was very detailed。 I have very little knowledge about this topic and I felt very lost through most of it。 I have a bachelor's in history so I am always looking for something new to explore and learn about。 This was something that intrigued me。 I just found myself struggling to get through it。 Maybe at another time I will give it a try but right now it was not enough to hold my attention。 。。。more